Your opinion on Voting and Awarding.
    Comment Type

    so here we go. almost one month since the last statement from LM - ok there was sema in between but one might think there should be enough time for a team discussion and/or a comment at least... i think everybody here is busy/working and using their spare time to improve the community. it's a pity that nobody at LM apparently realizes that....

    by Karen_Dustry 5 months ago
    difference b/w space frame and ladder frame.
    Comment Type

    Look forward to seeing your project progress - have fun icon_smile.gif

    by Mike-aka-VRP 5 months ago
    Taxi Cab Design?
    Comment Type

    that would be a nice idea i think.

    by raunakesmilo 5 months ago
    difference b/w space frame and ladder frame.
    Comment Type

    thanx @mike i will try the way you said, seems to be easy one and will soon be uploading the frame design

    by raunakesmilo 5 months ago
    Taxi Cab Design?
    Comment Type

    How about a design contest for a modern Taxi Cab? A design that is centered around cosmopolitan livery for hire vehicles. Think Checker Cab, London's Black Taxi, or Korben Dallas's "Fifth Element Taxi" icon_smile.gif

    by Mike-aka-VRP 5 months ago
    difference b/w space frame and ladder frame.
    Comment Type

    A space frame is a dune buggy type of frame composed of tubes arranged so that all forces are compressive or tensile but never bending. Ladder chassis is old school. Imagine a ladder laid flat with wheels attached to each corner and various vehicle components (body, engine, axles and so on) attached to the rungs or main side channels of the ladder. Ladder chassis' are designed to flex or bend during use. The ladder chassis is the simplest  chassis to build while a proper high performance space frame requires in depth structural analysis of how forces interact with the components and frame of the vehicle. Of course for your tadpole's operating environment, a space frame doesn't have to be overly thought out. Simply imagine transmissions of forces, such as gravity, and arrange your tubes so they resist bending. Imagine interlocking triangles forming a cage around the driver and vehicle components, with the wheel's suspension systems attached to the front and rear of the cage. The tadpole outer body shell will simply attach to the cage at a few bolt locations, but otherwise the shell will simply reside around the cage, not touching the space frame.

    by Mike-aka-VRP 5 months ago
    difference b/w space frame and ladder frame.
    Comment Type

    i am working on a project to build a solar vehicle which was recently two weeks ago given to me by by college( the link is below). we are building a tadpole design, for which i have to create a chassis.
    basically i am confused about the difference in space frame and ladder chassis.

    by raunakesmilo 5 months ago
    NEED HELP GETTING SOLID EDGE ACTIVATED
    Comment Type

    We're new to The Forge and trying to activate our Solid Edge without success. We have the download but unsure how to activate from here. Any feedback will be helpful. Please email me at oogen@comcast.net or call me at (435) 770-5447. Ask for Kim.

    by Oogen 5 months ago
    Your opinion on Voting and Awarding.
    Comment Type

    Very Interesting. I would like to add some points from my perspective of having been here for only a little over a year.

    1 - Design Brief: I got started in the Dominos Challenge and was dissatisfied with voting results of Phase 1 because I felt the design brief "Guidelines" had been violated. To be exact it was -"Design should not impede driver's ability to see - good outward visibility is very important". As a professional driver, "Good Outward Visibility" is 360 degrees around the vehicle, not just the forward 180 degrees. I thought these violations shouldn't have passed the "Validation" process.
    Suggestion: Open the "Design Brief" for Public discussion and criticism before the Challenge begins. Designer's Experienced Input would greatly detail the Design Brief beyond the abilities of the Challenge Sponsor's Design Experience and would intensify design focus toward an expected design achievement..

    2 - Facebook Votes and Anonymous Antagonists. This group is very obvious when they appear in the voting portion of a challenge.
    Suggestion: Vote Multiplier System.
    A - Established Community Member with a Challenge Entry is given a vote multiplier of 10.
    B - Established Community Member without a Challenge Entry is given a vote multiplier of 5.
    C - Anonymous New Member is given a vote multiplier of 1.

    3 - Lack of Time: I didn't enter the last two Challenges because I didn't have the time available, but I voted. My free time has been so limited that I couldn't even comment or checkout the various entries much until Voting Time. I based much of my vote in the ALV Challenge on initial impression of features not renders. In the Blueseed Challenge it was initial impression of renders. I based my votes on impression instead of substance. While this is best for Advertising Challenges like Blueseed it's not ideal for Mechanical Design Challenges like ALV. I am disappointed in the comment ability of the new Beta Site. I did not have the free time to scroll down to the end of comments of each entry, to post my comments.

    Suggestion: I feel the Beta chronology of thread posting should be reversed so new comments go on top, and I would like to see voting with current standings displayed throughout the Challenge Design Period (before the Validation period begins). As designs progress an observer should be allowed to vote on entries and give comments as to why an entry deserves such a vote (comment required for the vote to be registered before the beginning of Validation). This process would give design position feedback along with constructive design criticism during the design process. This Process Voting should be given a "1" vote multiplier at the end of the validation process, but only if the voter has made "Process Votes" on all entries by the end of the Validation period. During the End of Validation Vote. The Process "Voter" would be allowed to participate again, effectively giving them two votes (for all Entries) but each vote with a different vote multiplier. Note that at the beginning of the Validation period a Process Voter's Entry Votes are locked at their current positions, and only one over all Process Vote is given for each entry by each Process Voter. This would allow the Process Voter to make multiple votes during the Design Process on many Entries without casting more than one effective vote per entry.

    I apologize ahead of time if I didn't explain those concepts sufficiently.

    by Mike-aka-VRP 5 months ago
    Your opinion on Voting and Awarding.
    Comment Type

    Hi @Karen_Dustry , I must say I would wholly agree with your proposals with public voting and the obligation to provide feedback AND voting. I know how much it sucks when somebody downvotes your design and doesn't tell you why. The only issue I find in this would be the fact that there are so many entries that it takes quite a while to do so. I've done it before, and it was pretty tiring. I would say this issue could be resolved easily by increasing the voting period, so all people get time to provide feedback and votes. This method of voting could also have repercussions if it was mandatory for a person to vote comment on all designs, but some personal issue arose and he/she had no time to provide feedback on all entries... does the whole set of votes he/she did become invalid if he/she was unable to vote comment on all entries? Nevertheless, I think public voting is a good idea. We once had a score-number so we could see how much was our average score, and we have had the multiple category vote before, perhaps it definitely wouldn't harm LM to test out public voting! However, making it a precondition to particpate in order to vote? I'm not sure about that part, that would in the end hamper non-participant community members (such as me in regards to the lifestyle competition) unable to vote. I had no time to develop a design for this competition, and unfortunately, wasnt able to make it for the voting commenting period, but I would be upset if i was able to make it for vote comments but couldn't because I had not submitted an entry myself. I know there are people who like to sabotage other designers by placing a 1 for every other entry, which is why i think a publicly-viewable voting would be an interesting idea to try out in the next competition (like a sophisticated facebook like, where you are able to see who liked the work). I know some people also get pissed off when certain entries which loosely fit the briefs get voted very high purely because of presentation, this in the case I put it to the crew @LM for stricter approvals. It is good to be encouraging to designers on how good their design is or how they can improve, but rules need to be rules and EVERY item written in the guidelines for submission MUST be present within the design in order to be approved. This would solve many issues we have right now. So yeah, here are my two cents. the LM community could probably be unique in which it experiments with voting and tries to ensure majority members are satisfied with the process (some members can be a real pain in the ass, but thank god they are veeery rare), so I'm confident we all will be able to work something out! icon_smile.gif

    by braunarsch 6 months ago
    Your opinion on Voting and Awarding.
    Comment Type


    Nyco,

    first of all i do see and appreciate that you are apparently recognizing the importance of this issue.
    but i think you are making quite some basic mistakes.

    1. you lack a clear goal of the competitions. your argumentation jumps from "supporting 14 year old newbies" (means: design training camp) to "how to achieve qualified and valuable voting results (means: real world benefit of outcomes)" to "worlds best open source platform (means: the journey is the reward)" and finally (among even others) "good design". now, in order to make it clear: think of sports for a second: would the NBA be what it is if they tried to cover all of the above mentioned goals? means: if an untrained 14 year old kid was supposed to compete against LeBron? And the other way round: would LeBron be able to shine as he does against equal opponents? I think you should make up your mind on what the LM competitions are about in the first place. Don't get me wrong: i'm not for saying NO to a 14 yr old kid. but if he wants to play in NBA he/she needs to play according the NBA rules. Or maybe you need an additional contest category/special prize for young talents.
    You should realize that your current definition of "fun, easy, efficient..." actively contributes to the destruction of the common perception/image of the qualifications needed for professional product development. This is a global topic/problem. This is one of the reasons why many, many ppl believe that everybody is qualified to be a designer. that is one of the reasons why designers are paid way less than engineers (even though they work longer, more flexible, more multitasking, need constant evolution....) and even less than marketing guys and most everybody else involved in R&D. You wouldn't think to be able to do brain surgery after attending a first aid course, would you? You wouldn't think to be able to fly a plane after being flown in one. But nevertheless many ppl think they can be a designer after downloading a PSD test license from the net. Think about it. NBA or backyard streetball? fieldgoal or slamdunk contest? I think you can't have everything. At least not in one single competition.

    2. That's the reason for many hosts to define/characterize/limit the group of participants (students, professionals, amateurs, groups, individuals...). That's the reason for rules in general. That's the reason for briefings. What is all the nice briefing effort (videos, storyboards, interviews...) good for if the winning entry clearly ignores it? What i read about climax was that it had some strak/class a surfaces - wtf? what happened to all the talk about soccer moms, specialized solutions, loading issues, well, all the things relevant to ppl with an active lifestyle...? no word about that. honestly, that's a punch into the face of all those who made the mistake to spend lots of time to match the briefing. moreover this inspires ppl to give a s*** about the briefing in future and just go for any idea that suits them best. why not send in some glossy renderings of an old project? might still do the trick and outmatch some ppl who spent their time on ideas rather than class a surfaces? this did not happen for the first time. and this is actually an issue where you CAN NOT push away responsibility. think about your schedules if you believe that lack of time is the reason for not making sure a fair admission/validation process (obviously depending on the basic decisions/goals mentioned in point 1). but pls - if so, next time just point at the red pickup in the vid behind you and say: make it blue. and class a. (i worked with ICEM in Strak dept. @VW and believe me: its soo silly to talk about that in a designcontest....)

    3. "worst case scenarios" - i understand this approach but it's fundamentally wrong. a lawyer once explained the reason to me: there is a theory that a driver of a car needs to be prepared for the misbehaviour and mistakes of other drivers and probable events. That might be true to a certain extent but you can go so far (and that's what 'worst' case means) to ask to be prepared for a person suddenly landing in front of your hood because he was practicing pole vault in his backyard. OKAY. Apart from the technical impossibility of being prepared for situations like these and to avoid the subsequent accident the question is: if you follow this mindset - does it make sense to drive a car at all? this approach has only one clear outcome: whatever you do, you will fail (one way or the other). this is esp. true when it's applied onto social structures. this worse case scenario approach is nothing but a kill argument for every discussion/new idea. it inevitably ends with an argument on the likelihood of this or that event.

    4. "open source". you keep saying the early bird publication of projects and current comment culture help the entrants to get closer to the podium (btw. apart from individual, social progress: does it help the quality of the outcomes, too?). First: this was not true at least both in the ALV and the cruiser challenge. Three weeks "teaser" and subsequently the pubblication of a complete project shortly before the deadline... Second: let's face it: 98% of all comments on all projects are like: "so cool! nice renderings! well done!" and "thanks mate, glad you like it". impressive input. And third: you are afraid that multiple voting options like f.e. "feasibility" might skew the results since the minority is qualified to judge on that (pls. note that a lack of qualification apparently is not a problem for being a designer - but when it comes to voting it starts to be one?!) - i may agree on not everybody being qualified to judge specific skills/aspects but do you believe this is not happening when voting is private? aren't votes in an anonymous group on emotional subjects always distorted in a way or the other? i actually believe that public voting (in combination with commenting) helps to UNDERSTAND the level of qualification of the voter and what he/she's looking at in an entry. it will require ppl. to think about their comments and justify them with respect to those categories. and, moreover, public comments votes of experienced ppl. will be an inspiration, reference, source of knowledge for less skilled/qualified voters.

    5. You said you started out in 2008 with a voting system from 0 to 5 (and that you weren't happy with it). Well, that's not incredibly far away from the one in the latest ALV challenge, is it?
    And as far as i understand you tried quite a lot of alternative methods - - except for public voting.  i think i provided some valid suggestions on how to do public voting in my previous post. Wouldn't it be worth, time and just fair to give it a shot?

    thanks

    by Karen_Dustry 6 months ago
    Your opinion on Voting and Awarding.
    Comment Type

    Problems, problems... Reading all that you've written here guys, I'd be inclined to agree with all of you, but I am not sure that will resolve the problem, because, even if somebody will disagree, the voting and awarding situation became an issue, a real one. How we, the community will manage to solve this issue... well, this is a big challenge, but I think when there's a will there's a way and all of us must understand that many members are unhappy with the present state. First of all, I think that we should be completely honest in defining basic terms like community, respect or others. Because we try to solve something starting with the consequences, not the elements that go there and that's wrong. So, community, what means for our particular case that word? How many members compose this community? How many of them are really active members? Take this topic for example if you consider OK! Don't you think that this issue should interest much more people than me, Ianis, Alex, Nyko, Aurel, and mystery Karen_Dustry? Or we are a bunch of nuts who found themselves with false problems? So, I repeat, COMMUNITY... Well, dear community, wake up and say something about this since this issue concern you directly. 2. RESPECT. Well this is a super relative term. I think that the respect begins when one competition starts and the brief is publish on the site. In that brief are some requirements for each project in term of what we must deliver and a counter for submitting, validating, voting. Respect means, for me, that we MUST read, understand and do what this brief says, because, otherwise, at the end, in the validation process we will put the person who evaluate the projects (should be more than one) in thankless task of being forced to accept projects that do not meet exactly the brief, because, otherwise, probably, from over 100 initial entries, we will be able to vote, in the end, only 20 fully valid entries that respect all requirements and, in this way we might lost a lot of work, potential and maybe new enthusiast members. Another meaning of that word "respect" could be, like I said before, "do not copy". To post your work in advance, during a competition, does not mean "take what you can" or "inspire as much as possible". Everybody should be capable to develop his own concept, with his own inspirational sources, his ideas, good or bad, no mater, the purpose for publish earlier is to to gather opinions, comments, advices and, maybe to announce that you are the first with this idea for those who, let's say, thought something very similar, simply because it is out from "the logic of forms".
    Would have much to say, but, to solve "voting and awarding" we must solve first the assumptions that leads us there. Here are 2 themes: community unity and consensus and respect between members.

    by marian_cilibeanu 6 months ago
    Your opinion on Voting and Awarding.
    Comment Type

    I think my main point is to focus the discussion here. The question for this thread is only this:  "How do we do open voting well?"

    To properly test whether open voting is a good thing, we need to ADDRESS the scenarios I listed earlier (included below), not decide whether they are a problem. I know for some of us, we would not react the way I have described, but from historical testing we have done over time, we KNOW that these scenarios will be issues. So the task here is NOT to establish whether "Open Voting" is good or bad. Open Voting is neither good or bad, but it causes good and bad things to happen.

    The scenarios are the "Bad" things I can think of happening from open voting. Once we have solutions for each of these "problems", then we are ready to try an open voting experiment.


    Here are the scenarios I have identified again:
    "Voting begins and these things happen>
    One of the entries from Member A has a change that he made because of what Member B suggested, but Member B does not like how his suggestion was executed, so he votes Member A's entry VERY low. Member A is angry because he doesn't understand why B would do that and feels sabotaged.

    Member C is a 17 year old aspiring designer who is looking at beginning formal training in a year or so, has potential but no strong immediate skill. He was never going to win, but now he watches as his rating drops further and further and feels completely demoralized rather than being excited that he just to the step to participate.

    (With No Vote Weight) Member D has a huge network of friends, gets them all to come on and vote his entry up... etc. etc. you guys know the rest icon_smile.gif

    (With Vote Weight) Member E is a veteran designer or engineer of many years, and this is his first challenge on the community, either as a participant and voter, or just voter. He goes to start contributing his valuable input about the quality of an entry and is confronted with the fact that his vote weight gives him little to no impact. Although he has been shown how activity on the website mathematically increases his vote weight, he does not feel he needs to spend his time if he is 'under appreciated'.

    Member F wants to vote but does not want to describe why he wants to downvote a friends entry, so he just doesn't vote, and his opinions don't get heard as a result."

    by AlexFi 6 months ago
    Your opinion on Voting and Awarding.
    Comment Type

    "Design Brief: I can't think of major impact" I know how hard it is to made a good brief that have no blind spots and I do not blame that part at all to anybody that is doing the brief!

    "Collaboration Period: People ideally start talking to each other about ....". It is ideally because it is not happening all the time (see Dominos colaboration project) I can see a debate befor any

    can made an entry (so that people can speak about the facts that must be keep or discuss many ideas or the brief, details) so that anyone can work and know about the competition (see

    coment made bellow about the standard truck with a rack on it or the discussion regardin sizes on the last competition) I did not say it is the best idea but it is one!

    "Validation Period: If we do open voting, ...." this is an issue because need a lot of time and attention and I know sometimes it is only made by one guy and it is not good at all fatigue tired not in

    the mood time (I know from my work that it must be done good, fast and proffesionaly) ! Here could be a some guys designers (from comunity or not) that can help to get all done fast and good !

    "Voting Period: Ok, now we need....."  So A and B and C ( I always remeber the running thing that B is running faster than C so that A is running twice that fast than B ....:D) I do not see it like

    that ! I know many guys from the comunity and I speak with some of them daily and we share problems and talk about the comunity in fact I consider many of them friends (I don't know if they

    do but...) but in competitions we are fighting each other so here is war between us and in war situations you do what it must be done ! icon_biggrin.gif (not that bad as I describe it but almost) so there will be

    always deception, deceiving, lies and etc !

    Member C is a 17 year old aspiring designer... he needs to know the rank and I do not think that he will be upset he need that rank to evolve his skills !

    Member E is a veteran designer or engineer of many years, and this is his first challenge on the community, either as a participan .... "under appreciated". hmmmmm

    So what I want to higlight is that if I made a comment in a project durring competition it is not necessary that at the end I will vote it with high rank because of my comment. When I see the

    project I am focused on that project only and I analyze the project as it is (objective and subjective) and how do I feel about it but in the process of voting (when all the projects are finished) I will

    rank the projects by compare them togheter ( this is normal and it does not mean that I am trying to decive or lie). I hope you will get what I am trying to say and sorry for my not the best

    language knowledge!  

    by vasilatos_ianis 6 months ago
    Your opinion on Voting and Awarding.
    Comment Type

    All, you bring very valid points to the table here. I want to take a moment and address the issues that you are confronting.

    First, Let me start off with a little story. Back in 2009 Local Motors ran a competition for Detroit Motors. The topic was to design a vehicle for the Detroit Entrepreneur. This to me meant a vehicle that could carry tools, was utilitarian, and could be used by plumbers, electricians, dog groomers etc. The point of the vehicle was to be a damn good looking utility vehicle. I was graduating from college at the time so I did not partake in the challenge, but I did take the time to vote on every entry, and to provide feedback on every entry. At that time the voting scale was a simple 0-5 rank, and that was it. The website was a bit more simple back then as well. The winning design was completely unexpected. A european sports coupe that could hold a bicycle. I was puzzled. I was upset. No I did not participate in the challenge, but I didn't think it was right that so many people who participated and put so much thought into their designs were beaten by a design that would have frankly done very well in ALV. The quality of the presentation for the winning design was incredible, the design was awesome, but did it fit the brief.... frankly, I did not believe it did.

    So to @Karen_Dustry, I was you back in 2009. Your sentiments, your feelings, and your requests are not new. I had the same exact ones back in 2009. I got pissed. I wrote some negative things. I thought LM was picking the winning designs for marketing campaigns and investors. I grilled the team on their process, but at the same time I proposed a better voting process, and worked with the team to implement a voting process that was used all the way up until this last challenge. I joined the LM team just a few months later, and the selection process has always been my greatest challenge as a community manager and as the manager of multiple design challenges. One reason is there are tons of great ideas that don't make it on the podium, but the other one is how do we create a FUN, FAIR, EASY, EFFICIENT, and EFFECTIVE voting process? In the selection process there are multiple angles that need to looked at. While it may seem clear, I have helped with and managed nearly every competition since 2009, and I have learned a lot since then.

    First, voting is hard. Very hard. If you scour this forum, you will find that I have addressed this in past challenges, for example with the DARPA project, and a few others. I would love to be able to revolutionize voting and create something that is fun, efficient and effective, but therein lies the challenge. Look at governments around the world, name one system that is highly efficient, and that might be a starting model....

    Before I say more, I want to talk about the Active Lifestyle Vehicle Challenge. This is the fist industrial design challenge that we have run on the new Local Motors co-creation platform. We have spent a lot of time trying to build the worlds best co-creative platform to provide you with an excellent user experience. We will be rolling out the full website in the next few weeks, and I would love to show you around it more. Needless to say, the new platform is not perfect, and feedback like this will drastically help us improve it. The platform represents a major shift for Local Motors-- we have completely redesigned Local Motors from the ground up, using a completely new site architecture. This means that some of the features and functions from the old Forge site are not yet complete and could use improvements. As this challenge was the first challenge we ran on the new platform we were utilizing a new selection process, and it is clear that this needs to be improved before we run another challenge, and we will do just this. We thought the topic of the Active Lifestyle Vehicle was interesting, and that tying it to the event this past weekend was important, so we decided to run it and let you get a sneak peak in using the new platform. We decided to use a more simple selection process of the 1-5 rating, and then have the athletes at the Active Lifestyle Vehicle of the Year awards event rate the top 10 entries. I am glad we are having this discussion now, because we want to build you the best website for your needs that we can, and we want to make sure that we have several different selection processes in place depending on the type and scope of the challenge or collaboration that will take place in the future.

    I reviewed the voting results long and hard over the past few days and before I announced the winners, and I thought that the selection of the top 10 was very representative of strong entries. One thing I should mention is that it has always been the case that entries that are started and submitted early on and updated regularly that take into account community feedback almost always make it onto or near the podium. In this challenge there was a significant number of projects that were teased for weeks and only presented in the last few days. Thus they have no exposure, often are presented as complete projects and do not take in community feedback, and thus have less "exposure" and thus less of a following. If you look at the top 10, with the exception of just a few entries, most of them were created early on, incorporated community feedback and had a strong following from early in the challenge. That is not to say you HAVE to show your work early on, but it does help.

    @Karen_Dustry has said that we say the professionals and the community agreement is used to excuse us and for marketing, but that is simply not true. The selection of the same winner has happened in multiple challenges. That happened in Terra-Prix 2085. That happened with Velo-mobile. That happened with Domino's. That happened in this challenge. The reason the two-part selection process is so interesting, is that it validates the communities response to what constitutes a winning entry.

    by idesigncars 6 months ago
    Your opinion on Voting and Awarding.
    Comment Type


    Lets take the Domino's project for example. We showed Domino's the top 10 entries. Then they wanted to see the top 15. So we showed them 5 more. Then they asked to see the next 15. In all, we showed Domino's the top 30 entries, and they still chose the PACK by Extreme, which was also the community favorite. It is not a coincidence. It is good design. We could discuss this for a while, but that is another topic, and requires some peanuts and beer. But I digress.  I think, and Local Motors thinks, that is says a lot about YOU the community, and how you vote. It shows that you, the community, is great at choosing a winning entry, entries that meet the design brief, that meet the task, that are functional, and well presented.

    So now to some challenges regarding the selection Process: I feel that if there are 64 entries in a challenge, then every entry should have 63 votes on it (minus 1 vote since I don't think creators should vote on their own entries). But that is rarely the case. Participants often don't vote on their peers work, and that I find is unfortunate, especially when you have others who did not participate in a challenge (like a friend of mine) who take the time to vote on all 64 entries. At the same time, some of the participants who did not vote on every entry are the very same ones who come to the table at the end of a challenge and complain that the voting system/ selection process doesn't work. They are correct. The process doesn't necessarily work if you don't vote on your peers work, or if you give yourself a 5 and everyone else a 1.  That, I find, is unfortunate. But, we cannot and will not force people to vote. But will Open Voting solve these problems? I don't think so, and I'll discuss this later.  

    Next, Voting takes time. In 2009, I posited that, just like @Karen_Dustry stated, we should have multiple categories for an entry-- such as Design, Functionality, Fits the Brief, Buildability, etc. We tried that in 2009, 2010, and 2011 in different forms. First, if you are trained as an industrial designer with no engineering background, how can you vote on the buildability of something--- not everyone is qualified to vote on that. We would love those who are qualified to be able to, but what if my friend wanted to vote on all 64 entries in a challenge-- an English professor with no design or engineering training at all... Should she be excluded because she is not "Qualified". She will vote on what she sees, and what she likes, but if you add certain categories, it creates an interesting situation in which you are getting data that may not be accurate. Thus, a category like buildability is only relative, and may skew results in ways that may not be good.

    But aside from this point, think about this. If you have 64 entries, with 5 categories, all of a sudden you are asking someone to do over 300 clicks to vote, which, due to human nature, means you will have fewer votes per entry. And that is only with 64 entries. Take a challenge with 150 entries. Now you are at nearly 750 clicks for just one person. I maybe wrong, but I am not sure if @marian and @Karen_Dustry and @Vasilatos amongst many other loyal members would want to do that.

    Remember, FUN, EASY, EFFICIENT and EFFECTIVE. Those are to me the key elements to creating a good selection process. In the U.S. only about 50% of the eligible voting population actually votes, and that is because it is hard, not efficient, and, in the minds of many, "not effective" i.e. my vote wont count so it doesn't matter.

    We have explored other ideas in the past, such as graphical voting where you could move a dot within a box with 4 different criteria, or drag bars left and right, and also giving you a graphical representation on how you voted each entry so you would know how your personal rank would look. In the past we simply didn't have a platform that could support this, but with the new website, we may be able to integrate something like this. But it will have to be tested, and we are happy to work on it with you.

    I think I should stress that the Local Motors platform is a co-creation platform-- and that you and your voice are heard and do count. If you have an idea, present it to us, like @Karen_Dustry has. If you have a solution, propose it. This is your platform, our goal is to make a great experience for you, so we are open to ideas and feedback.

    Now to the idea of Open Voting. AlexFi has presented some very interesting points in his post, and I think that they should be thought about. While I am not opposed to Open Voting, there are many things to consider when thinking about it. On our old platform, there was an open voting mechanism on "checkups". There was a Good and Bad button that could be clicked on every checkup (now called projects). Back in the day, @Braunarsch used to post tons of checkups of various projects he was working on. He worked is ass off, and was just starting out. On a lot of his early work, he got more bad votes than good votes, but he kept working, and didn't let it get him down. There were other members though, who were new to the website, who posted a project, received 20 bad votes for a small napkin sketch that frankly had a lot of potential but wasn't rendered well, and we never saw those members again. The fact that they received so many bad votes and yet no comments on the sketch was heart breaking.  Frankly for open voting to work, I honestly believe that if you vote something down, you should be required to leave a comment/ critique as to why you don't like it. But if you require people to do this, then they simply won't vote. IS that better or worse than being anonymous?

    The goal in this community is to try and work together, to help each other get better, and to help everyone see their day on the podium. I would love to see @Karen_Dustry on the podium. I have seen @Vasilatos and @Marian on the podium and both deserved their podium finishes for their hard work, but they both worked very hard to get on the podium. We have an incredible community, and an incredible opportunity to make Local Motors the worlds best design and co-creation platform. Your feedback and discussions like this are crucial to our development, and it is MY goal and the goal of my team to make your experience an exceptional one. I am happy to continue this discussion and address more issues. For now I'm going to stop and let you share your thoughts based on my feedback. I hope this helps.

    by idesigncars 6 months ago
    Your opinion on Voting and Awarding.
    Comment Type

    Hi Alex ! OK so lets see ! 1. How can I rank my self in the design comunity if I know only the 3 winners. I learn by comparing me with other competitors so I want to made a better design and a good design Can you tell me at Peterbilt competition my rank from the more than 100 projects ? it was 10 or 34 or 50 or 99 or why not 100 so than I can judje my self regarding other entryes (learning to be better) ! 2 How can I see comments and let comments on or take a conversation with other people in some project if I do not see them ! It is difficult (last competition) to go to each from100 projects to see if there is a good discussion in some project ! I need time ! To much time to see and to read them all ! To see my comments left for me in my project is difficult because I must wait a long time for the website and my computer to download all the files but what if for 100 entries! 3 I have always like to made comments on many projects and help guys there even if we knew that is no chance top but for them was a feeling of comunity (see Domino's) at last competition it was not that feeling many have started the competion with just one file with no designs and after the finish line they have post the design (I do not comment how) even if was a deadline! (sorry but I had a long and bad month at work but I have struggled to finish on time my project) and they passed no problem and I am not the only one who notice that ! 4 voting ! Ahhhh the voting and ranking, so I am rank 6 now can you tell me what that means? what ca I do with it (special things) ? or it is only to feel better if I have it ! Because in that 2 years I did not notice that can help me in anyway ! For me it is just a number that is there and that is it ! So add something to it and so you can do with it something because were are talking about it we now it is there and ... That number must show that I have worked a lot or I made a lot of comments or something. Return to voting you sad that my little number it is part of the voting process and give me the chance to count to be more important in the voting process ...I do not feel it. Show me how to made that little number works! To give votes and to rank projects (made a top project but just for me ) the system allow me and give me the chance to abusse in the system (I do not but many do ) so the question is why I am hiddening and why? It is an OPEN comunity but the voting process is not ! I do not have answeres to many questions and maybe for a lot of them I will never have but I try !

    by vasilatos_ianis 6 months ago
    Your opinion on Voting and Awarding.
    Comment Type

    *The following is not stated as an argument against open voting, but to begin to identify the challenges that must be addressed first*

    Let's assume a typical LM competition format such as you can find in previous challenges on the site. Design Brief > Collaboration period > Validation Period > Voting Period > Award Period.

    Design Brief: I can't think of major impact

    Collaboration Period: People ideally start talking to each other about their entries and helping each other out. Feedback is given and authors make decisions some of which are the result of input given from other members.

    Validation Period: If we do open voting, validations should probably be open, so during this section authors are informed of their lacking material in the project thread (and by email to make sure we get their attention!).

    Voting Period: Ok, now we need to determine what "open" should actually mean. I'm basically going to shoot out all the worst case scenarios I can think of so that we can address them.

    Voting begins and these things happen> One of the entries from Member A has a change that he made because of what Member B suggested, but Member B does not like how his suggestion was executed, so he votes Member A's entry VERY low. Member A is angry because he doesn't understand why B would do that and feels sabotaged.

    Member C is a 17 year old aspiring designer who is looking at beginning formal training in a year or so, has potential but no strong immediate skill. He was never going to win, but now he watches as his rating drops further and further and feels completely demoralized rather than being excited that he just to the step to participate.

    (With No Vote Weight) Member D has a huge network of friends, gets them all to come on and vote his entry up... etc. etc. you guys know the rest icon_smile.gif

    (With Vote Weight) Member E is a veteran designer or engineer of many years, and this is his first challenge on the community, either as a participant and voter, or just voter. He goes to start contributing his valuable input about the quality of an entry and is confronted with the fact that his vote weight gives him little to no impact. Although he has been shown how activity on the website mathematically increases his vote weight, he does not feel he needs to spend his time if he is "under appreciated".

    Award Period: You all can fill in the blank here for the reactions icon_smile.gif

    *Once again, the preceding was not stated as an argument against open voting, but to begin to identify the challenges that must be addressed first*
    If you can think of any other worst case scenarios, add them up to the discussion so we don't miss anything.

    by AlexFi 6 months ago
    Your opinion on Voting and Awarding.
    Comment Type

    Great points Ianis, just for clarity though we want to keep this particular discussion super focused on the question of publicizing the voting. So let's start playing some scenarios out and tweak the details:

    by AlexFi 6 months ago
    Your opinion on Voting and Awarding.
    Comment Type

    Thanks Aurel for opening this forum about the votes !  I agree with Marian and Karen_Dustry there are some good points in that they say and those ideas can evolve into good things for the community ! I think we need some limits on what we show in our projects and maybe an open jury that can verify (on-line or not, from the comunity or not) if everyone has done the tasks and to give a profesionaly and objective rank that can or not count on the voting ! We should make a difference between comments and voting because in many cases I like a lot of projects individualy and many have great talents for it but in relation with other projects or comparing with othes can not be with high ranks ! And still I did not understand about the little number that call ranking that has every people if they have a file ! 1-7 until now (if I am right) what we could do with it and what can do that little number and how high can it go ...to a 100 ?

    by vasilatos_ianis 6 months ago
    Your opinion on Voting and Awarding.
    Comment Type

    I will be very happy if it will happen and yes, you are right, no matter who you are, no matter who we are like individuals if we will succeed like a community after all to change what has to be changed for good because I think that we deserve more, simply because we offer very much, by this community, during this extremely valuable competitions. I hope your input, my input and other people input will help the community and LM to better understand that voting and awarding old issues and I also hope that future design challenges will not be alike, from some points of view, with the one that just ended.

    by marian_cilibeanu 6 months ago
    Your opinion on Voting and Awarding.
    Comment Type

    thx marian. aurel knows me and he's able to keep a secret. in the end it doesn't even matter who i am since my point consists in helping the community, not myself. thx again.

    by Karen_Dustry 6 months ago
    Your opinion on Voting and Awarding.
    Comment Type

    I don't know who you really are Karen_Dustry, but I must admit that your comment was like music to my ears. It seems that you are very new in this community but also you know a lot of our problems and complaints and you pointed very well the eternal issue of transparency of the votes that bothers a lot of members of the community. Also, I think that your proposals are very relevant and could be tested in the future. I strongly agree with your project evaluation system, point 6, multiple voting categories, because, like I said in my comment, will prevent more subjectivity as long as we will be able to vote upon some kind a pre-assessment grid, provided that everything is public.
    Thank you mystery Karen_Dustry for your great comment!

    by marian_cilibeanu 6 months ago
    Your opinion on Voting and Awarding.
    Comment Type

    i'm wondering about your question. everything is going just fine, isn't it? like the 1973...pardon, 2013 ALV challenge: "innovation", "literally anything goes into this challenge", "your chance to show the automakers...blabla" - outcome: a pickup with a roof rack. wow. going just fine, isn't it?
    "I think this by far had the nicest surface development, and the best representation of a production, class a finish. not to mention a clever roof system."
    i for one haven't read anything about "to design a tiguan version for skoda and seat (or a mix of both)" in the brief. not to mention strak surfaces..
    whatever, i won't waste more time on this - everybody who's able to read the briefing can build up his/her own opinion..(but at least this might explain why the american auto industry is dying..) evolution? vision? benefit? overrated. where can i buy the b'twin velocity? not there yet? why? they could&should be selling thousands of a product that apparently complied so well with the original briefing...instead we have the usual scenes like at the end of a bonanza episode: everybody is congratulating everybody for being so awesome. individual voices, questions and puzzled remarks are deliberately ignored. well, that could be quite a reason for some ppl not wanting any changes. but beware of mentioning that! i know it would be wrong anyway to imply this generally since there are undoubtly many ppl with good intentions as well. moreover i won't blame the community since LM keeps pointing out that the voting results constantly comply with their professional evaluations. interesting series of coincidences. but in fact it's just an ooold marketing trick to push away responsibility..
    anyway, why is there even the tech. possibility to think of coterie in the first place? this finally brings us to the real issue: the voting system.
    my question is: why is it anonymous?
    what's the benefit in having public comments and private votes? this is not the parliament we're voting on, is it? why is it possible to say "love it" and vote the opposite? what is a comment good for if it doesn't help to evolve a project towards a promising and realistic direction? wouldn't it be just hypocrisy if it didn't comply with the vote? and if it (as you claim, already) does - why would it need to be anonymous then? well, the only plausible answer (apart from the mismatch between number of votes vs. comments) is: it doesn't.

    therfor i suggest to think about public voting. this helps to prevent from the above mentioned situations !>in advanceit also helps to put the votes into an individual and overall balance - you can easily see if a vote is socially motivated or really referring to the actual quality of a proposal. example (exaggerated, to make it clear): somebody gives 1 point to all projects except for his own and the ones of the "social silverbacks". got it? you can also see the overall preference of the voting audience much better rather than by just looking at the podium.
    of course there is a risk of hurt feelings when the voting will be visible. nobody wants to be placed last in a contest. but i dont think there will be those situations a lot if you go for one (or all) of these options:

    1. make it a precondition for voting to participate yourself

    2  make it a precondition for voting to comment on that project first

    3. make it a precondition to vote (and hereby comment) on all projects

    4. after a determined time (like one out of two weeks for voting) you can just show the top 10-30 voted projects in a poll. this prevents from any project being placed last in a contest. (a bit like the qualifying system in formula 1)

    5. if you're not a designer you need to identify yourself first in order to vote. this helps to prevent from those "facebook friend votes". we all know that those votes dont help the quality of the final product/winning entry since they are exclusively socially motivated.

    6. create multiple voting categories like: design, interior, exterior, presentation quality, feasibility, concept idea/visionary content (...)

    i'm sure there are even more opportunities to increase the experience quality for the participants.
    this system would also have quite an impact on both the quality of the comments and the outcomes. it would be tough to give just one point after "praising" the design. and the other way round, too: it would be hard to give five points if the only good thing you can say about a proposal were that you are friends with the author. i believe that it will lead ppl to think about their comments, explain their critics better and to both balance&justify their votes.

    i know that some of the statements above might sound a bit harsh/hard. i wouldn't need to say that. there are plenty of competitions and related websites. but i somehow became fond of this community and often like the themes of the competitions on this website. additionally i believe that LM is capable of and close to achieving  a fair and creative platform for open source development. the funny thing is: most of the required actions (like point 1&5 - you need to be registered in one way or the other) are already fulfilled - but for some reason not publicly visible. why?
    you should not forget that you are recieving a s***load of ideas for free. many ppl here spend lots of time hoping to contribute to a faster paced evolution. you should try to figure out what it would cost you to buy all of this input instead. i think you owe the community a more transparent and valuable review of the entries. moreover you should help entrants whose beautiful ideas are outmatched by some glossy renderings of a common cardesign-hodgepodge. make sure the entries stick to a briefing. be brave&responsible enough to say no to entries that don't.

    take the "side-car-rier" project for example: a beautiful idea that just lacks some ID and presentation quality. you could easily choose this one and make it a topic for further development. it has the potential of creating a completely new vehicle category! 10 times more than just another pickup with a roof rack. if you look f.e. at specialized vehicles on airports you'll realize that the idea behind "side-car-rier" is everything but silly. think of the "spirit of st. louis". think of the latest sensor(radar, thermo, nightvision, GPS...)&autopilot technology. what do you need carwindows for today? does the steering position of a truck need to be in the front nowadays? does a trailer need to be mechanically connected to a carrier? all of these questions and dynamite live inside concepts like the one mentioned above. i'm sure that i'm not the only one to recognize this potential. you, as professionals at LM, surely do. it's your decision to allow or prevent these concepts to evolve further. don't push away responsibility. help the community to recognize, understand and evolve this potential!
    thanks

    by Karen_Dustry 6 months ago
    Your opinion on Voting and Awarding.
    Comment Type

    Well, that's a good topic Aurel. I think that the current voting system has reached its limits and the last challenge has just demonstrated that in my opinion. I don't really know what we need to do about that, what we could put in place of it, but I think it's clear that this situation is no longer valid for increasingly more people and that is not only my opinion. Maybe we could discuss some kind of scoring grid adapted for each challenge and, the voting process could take place on the basis of criteria set out in it, to decrease as much as possible the level of subjectivity of each voter. But, it will be difficult and, for this to work, the rules should apply perfect and equally to all participants in the challenge: about timing, the number of boards, the subjects of them with fewer possible interpretations etc. I mean, exactly what has not happened in the latest competition. I think that, all participants in a competition, even if they are in this position for the first time or not, should respect each other in every aspect of their participation and that means, in my opinion, what I mentioned before, among other important aspects, among which I include one imperative: DO NOT COPY OTHER PROJECTS!!! What do you think about that Aurel?

    by marian_cilibeanu 6 months ago
    Your opinion on Voting and Awarding.
    Comment Type

    Hi everybody,


    Design and engineering challenges are at the core of the Local Motors experience. The voting and awarding processes associated to these events have evolved and been refined over time in order to celebrate the most creative and well thought-out projects.

    - From Hawaii Motors, 3 prizes were awarded to celebrate the whole podium and not only the winner. Since then, many multi-winner challenges have been run,
    - Terra Prix has been the opportunity to celebrate both a community vote and a jury vote given by notoriously skilled concept art designers,
    - Engineering blitzes created a new format of challenge adapted to engineering projects,
    - The second step of Domino's Pizza UDV Challenge inaugurated a new approach to evaluate and reward collaboration...


    And the list of experiments and evolutions goes on. Obviously, the goals are about offering the best experience possible to all participants with a fair and ethical reward, while giving a chance to the most exciting projects to hit the road one day.

    There are many different ways to run a challenge and award prizes so we would like to hear feedback and suggestions from you to ensure that your experience keeps improving while celebrating great design and engineering projects!


    Thank you!

    by Aurel. 6 months ago
    Your opinion on Voting and Awarding.
    Comment Type

    Hi everybody,


    Design and engineering challenges are at the core of the LM community experience. The voting and awarding processes associated to these events have evolved and been refined over time in order to celebrate the most creative and well thought-out projects.

    - From Hawaii Motors, 3 prizes were awarded to celebrate the whole podium and not only the winner. Since then, many multi-winner challenges have been run,
    - Terra Prix has been the opportunity to celebrate both a community vote and a jury vote given by notoriously skilled concept art designers,
    - Engineering blitzes created a new format of challenge adapted to engineering projects,
    - The second step of Domino's Pizza UDV Challenge inaugurated a new approach to evaluate and reward collaboration...


    And the list of experiments and evolutions goes on. Obviously, the goals are about offering the best experience possible to all participants with a fair and ethical reward, while giving a chance to the most exciting projects to hit the road one day.

    There are many different ways to run a challenge and award prizes so we would like to hear feedback and suggestions from you to ensure that your experience keeps improving while celebrating great design and engineering projects!


    Thank you!

    by Aurel. 6 months ago
    Your opinion on Voting and Awarding.
    Comment Type

    Hi everybody,

    Design and engineering challenges are at the core of the LM community life and experience. The voting and awarding processes associated to these events have evolved and been refined over time in order to celebrate the most creative and well thought-out projects.

    - From Hawaii Motors, 3 prizes were awarded to celebrate the whole podium and not only the winner. Since then, many multi-winner challenges have been run,
    - Terra Prix has been the opportunity to celebrate both a community vote and a jury vote given by notoriously skilled concept art designers,
    - Engineering blitzes created a new format of challenge adapted to engineering projects,
    - The second step of Domino's Pizza UDV Challenge inaugurated a new approach to evaluate and reward collaboration...


    And the list of experiments and evolutions goes on. Obviously, the goals are about offering the best experience possible to all participants with a fair and ethical reward, while giving a chance to the most exciting projects to hit the road one day!

    There are many different ways to run a challenge and award prizes so we would like to hear feedback and suggestions from you to ensure that your experience keeps improving while celebrating great designs and innovations!

    Thank you!

    by Aurel. 6 months ago